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You would have thought 8000 people wearing FairTax shirts and hats were dropped from Black Hawk helicopters. One minute there were news ferrets taping Republicans in suits and ties swapping spit out front of the Koger Center..........the next minute there were, from out of nowhere, 8000 people holding FairTax signs and chanting "FairTax Now". A Romney campaign staffer, stopped me and asked with a confused look on his face, "where did all these people come from?".
Hell, it wasn't like it hadn't been publicized. The FairTax.org group had been preparing for this for weeks. It was amazing! We did miss a couple of the big talking heads that we had hoped to see, like Herman Cain and Sean Hannity, but we did get to see Mike Huckabee, Neal Boortz and John Stossel. These guys have and continue to do a lot for this movement, as has Congressman John Linder and 60 co-sponsors. However, to see 8000 people drive from different parts of the US to be in Columbia, South Carolina on a TUESDAY NIGHT in order to show their support for the FairTax put a little lump in my throat. (No, not the kind that makes me almost gag when I think about the IRS and our current unequitable code.)
So, yes, I do wish you could have made it along with a few thousand more. But, there will be another one and even if it is on the other side of the country...you should go.
Troy Tarpley
Macon, GA
First you have to get the term "tax write-off" out of your head. Those taxes were your money in the first place, confiscated by the Federal Government to do with what they wish. The Fair Tax is a revenue neutral program, meaning it will generate no more or no less in tax revenue than we do now. For the best info go to www.FairTax.org and read the FAQ section. It will answer almost any question you might have. I'm going to post something more about this later.
TTFN!
Ms.U
and I dont have a problem with paying MY FAIR SHARE of taxes to my government for programs that benefit me, my fellow citizens, or the country as a whole. My objections are found in the multiple inequities in current system. I understand that the "writeoff" is a misnomer, but in the cases of charities, it has both served as a way to creat incentives to give to charities, which in one sense, functioned directly to divert "tax dollars" from the government directly to designated "non profit" agencies, eliminating the "overhead" of, for example, the USO having to get funds from US GOVT instead of donors.
Keep your eye on this issue because it is picking up grassroots steam everyday of the week across the nation and the campaigns are beginning to notice. Everywhere they go someone is asking, "why are you not leading on the FairTax?"
It is an outside Washington, citizen inspired reform that has Democrats, Republicans, Independents and Libertarians actually agreeing. Wresting control away from Congress of the corrupt bi-partisan process of granting tax favors under the income tax system will require advanced democracy and intensive grassroots pressure and that is what is happening now.
You said..."I have to admit I haven’t read much about what the FairTax proposal does for corporate taxes?". Based on some of your fair and logical questions, you show that you have read very little about the FairTax at all.
Before wasting so much of your time and others, by asking us to give you answers, to questions we get over and over....take the time to familiarize yourself with the actual FairTax plan. Do your homework. Don't jump to conclusions or base decisions and more questions on a portion of the plan or on grapevine explanations.
The answers to your valid questions are in The FairTax book and probably at www.fairtax.org.
Thank you for caring enough to even ask and for getting involved.
As for "corporate taxes". Corporations don't pay taxes. I am the sole shareholder of my company, which is a corporation. My corporation pays nothing. I do. So it is with Coca Cola, Microsoft, your local car dealer, etc. Shareholders, which are INDIVIDUALS pay taxes. A corporation is just some piece of paper which list the individual or individuals that own the company. To be fair, I did use to think the same thing, until someone had me think about it.
As for charities. Hey, we Americans give to charity more than any other nation in the world and that is under the current messed up system. If you make $50,000 and give $5,000 to charity, you do not pay taxes on the 5K but do pay taxes on the 45K. Your tax bracket at 50K is 25%. That means you pay 25% on the 45K because you gave away 5K. You pay nothing on the 5K. The taxes you pay on the 45K would be about $11,258.
Now, had you not given away the 5K you would have had to pay taxes on it. Taxes on the 5K would be 25% since you made 50K. 25% of 5K is.....$1258!
So, you gave $5000 to charity to KEEP FROM giving $1258 to the Fed.
So, IF your giving JUST to keep from paying taxes, it's mathematically silly.
Besides, I don't think the majority of givers in the US do it for a "tax deduction".
You can only do three things with money. Save it. Spend it. Give it. We would be able to do each of these as we chose, because we would get to keep 100% of our pay checks.
Stop by any time!
Steve Lee
outside of Gainsville Florida
Last month my family skipped on down to Phoenix,Az to attend the graduation exercises of the University of Phoenix (the worlds largest University, over 250,000 students world wide) held in the Coyote Ice Hockey Rink (don't know if there is any symbolism there or not). Our daughter was there to receiver her Master Degree in Busniess Administration.
The event started off with a (Kilted Clad) Bag Pipe band stridently moving in an impressive cadence reminisent of going off to a Civilization saving War...just made you want to come out of the stands and push the spokes of the Caissoned Cannons headed to the Front. Then it happened. One of the Regents started of his speech by saying that, -the greatest accomplishment of those before him (the students) was that they found this great University- As he went on presenting his accolades, I couldn't help but notice that he (nor any of the other school officials) made mention of the individual accomplishments or efforts of the students. The *I* word (individual) was never used in the entire Ceremony. I thought of you, when I was witnessing this "spectacle" (with my accompanying thought) Yuh, Yuh, Yuh, here it is in all its splendor...the War of the Collective against the Individual. It occured to me that I needed that spoke in hand for other purposes, but then a 2X4 would do just as well.
LaMar Porter
P.S. I'm from Delta, Co. just 40 miles south of Grand Junction. I was one of those who sent an angery Email to KNZZ when the took you of the air. Keep up the good work, and Thank you for your service to our Country.
It was amazing to see all the support that was there. My husband and I are planning on traveling to Iowa for the next rally. He has told his friends from all over the U.S. about it and they are planning on attending also. The next rally should blow this last one out of the water!
Thank you Neal for all that you do and say. We love you long time.
All this Fair Tax Tax talk is of pipe dreams, of a loud-mouth,popinjay,high school graduate,who won't debate anyone of a number of knowledgeable persons,on neutral grounds, with a neutral moderator. That tells you alot about the spokesman, and his pipedream,pie in the sky,flash in-the-pan ideas!
So ask yourself,why won't Boortz debate people who are opposed to his Fair Tax Program?
"So ask yourself,why won't Boortz debate people who are opposed to his Fair Tax Program?"
Are you crazy? Have you not listened to nor watched the debates Neal and/or John Linder have either had or accepted and have been published already? Also, there are many folks who try to shoot down the Fair Tax plan, but these are people have REFUSED to debate either Nell or Congressman Linder?
Pops, there are plenty of folks who will and have participated in such debates, so if you want to see/experience/hear those debates, then I encourage you to petition/challenge those folks to do just that - ask for a debate with any FT leader.
Until then, don't act like you know everything you need to know about the bill. It's obvious you don't want to know.
Calling on Troy etc., to please assist me in educating Pops about the Fair Tax.
What's your answer to my question, "Who's going to manage the millions upon millions of checks that need to be mailed monthly, and on time, to every single person who purchased a product in the preceding month?
The Fair Tax looks good on paper but the real % of what ones pays is closer to 35-37% on each purchase!
MisUnderestimated,you have to look at both the good side and the bad side. of this pipe dream. The bad side comes out a winner every time when the true facts are laid out for all to read!
You don't need Troy to answer my questions,you can answer them all by yourself,unless you not bright enough!
I will admit the FairTax is hard to understand. And why not? We have been taxed on income for what seems forever. . I got into the FairTax and was so skeptical, I have now read more econ papers than when I was in college. (The scary thing is I understand it now.)
So for the moment forget Boortz and refer to University econ professors such as Dale W. Jorgenson Professor at Harvard University. or Laurence J. Kotlikoff Professor of Economics Boston University or …. Over 70 others. The research is out there, Boortz just tried to make it easy
Here are a couple of papers to read:
The National Sales Tax: Who Bears the Burden?
by Gilbert E. Metcalf
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-289.html
Gilbert E. Metcalf is an associate professor of economics at Tufts University and an economist with the National Bureau of Economic Research.
Taxing Sales under the FairTax –
What Rate Works?
http://people.bu.edu/kotlikof/BHI-LK%20Taxing%2...
by
Paul Bachman
Director of Research, Beacon Hill Institute, Suffolk University
Jonathan Haughton
Associate Professor of Economics
Senior Economist, Beacon Hill Institute
I noticed you said “As for “corporate taxes”. Corporations don’t pay taxes” This is true and not true. We as supporters will get the issue back in faces every time. So to clarify, corporations do indeed pay taxes or have a tax “incidence” AND they pass on the “burden” to us in the price of a product. When we have a property tax, we bear the tax incidence and the burden.. I hope this helps and if you get into any hard core arguments refer people to. Tax Incidence, Tax Burden, and Tax Shifting: Who Really Pays the Tax? http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/cda04-12...
by Stephen J. Entin
I also agree that while companies (corporations) incur their tax burden/liability/incidence, they are also in the position to factor that into their "overhead" and pass along to consumers of their product/service with their pricing.
Again, I do not claim to be a tax accountant or economist. I just think that there is alot of merit to moving to a VAT sales tax system, and believe that a serious such effort can only result in improvement in the current byzantine tax code structure.
Max
Oh, and who gives two flips about John Sugg, or Creative Loafing? Says something about the paper for whom you work when they have to give it away free in all the local bars and dives. So, you're probably not that educated either, if that's your source of "news."
Thanks for your comments.
The V.A.T. or value added tax does spread the tax incidence out over many payers but still the tax burden rests with the end consumer. We have a form of hidden VAT now.
Look at a loaf of bread. Who did you get it? The farmer buried his taxes into the price of his wheat. The miller buried his tax into the price of his service. The baker buried his tax into the cost of his service. The packager, the wholesaler, the retailer, you get the picture. The VAT retains complexity and compliance costs.
One advantage of the FairTax is simplicity. One single tax at the end sale is all you pay.
Compliance costs are reduced to a minimum.
Further, let’s look at a simplified production function. Production or output = (Labor X Capital). Tax labor and or capital and you reduce production. “Un-tax” both and you increase production. You set it free!
The current income tax, a flat income, or a V.A.T. acts an anchor. Only the FairTax sets labor and capital free. This is truly the best advantage of the FairTax and the hardest to explain.
There are over an estimated $11 trillion dollars in offshore accounts and there just to escape the tax code. There is no reason for that money not to come home under the FairTax. Ask yourself what would happen to our banking system if it had just half of $11 trillion in new deposits?
The beuty of the Fair Tax is the repeal of the 16th Amendment (the IRS), and taxes will be truly transparent. As it stands, the current tax system is not a tax on wealth, which the libs like to make it, saying the rich pay fewer taxes. There are many folks who are children of wealthy families, and have no real 'income,' so with the Fair Tax, everyone will be taxed the same - at the point of consumption. You can choose what you want to buy and what you don't want to buy, so this is the most equitable tax plan around.
Comment again if you want more info, and I'll send it to you.
I one thing I have that you don't have, is "Common Sense"!
Here's my question for you Misunderestimated, If the Fair Tax is all about getting rid of the IRS,and making the government smaller,and less intusive into our lives,who's going to send out the tens of millions of checks each month on time? Who's going to track 5 year-old Johnny's $1.00 purchase of a candy bar,so he gets his refund at the first of the month? Who's going to verify all the purchases you make in cash,who's going to be prying into your checking accounts to see if your telling the truth about what you bought?
It's all hog wash,pie-in-the-sky foolishness once you get past the giddiness of getting a check each and every month for the rest of your life!
Inclosing ,what difference does it make where you get the Creative Loafing Paper, what was written there about your little god,Boortz was the truth,something that rarely, if ever comes out of his mouth!
As one who works with the public and speaks publicly 200+ times a year, I'd like to point out one thing to you: A person in the right has no need of personal attack. You attack the fair tax program with a hypothetical situation for which you offer no solution. You attack the supporters of the fair tax program as worshippers of their "little god, Boortz." This only hurts your credibility and portrays you as one who has a personal vendetta with Boortz. This does not help your case.
I know nothing about the fair tax program. But, considering the exchange I've seen on this blog, I'm inclined to support it. Its supporters offer evidence upon which a person can make a rational decision. You, Cpl Frank, have offered only insults and a meaningless hypothetical situation. You have no credibility or believability in my sight.
You know nothing except what you've read here, and you are "INCLINED to support it"(your words)wow, talk about Blind Faith!
It's supporters don't offer any "NEW" evidence. This Fair Tax scheme is driven by one thing, and one thing only, the possibility of monthly checks. What good is it in abolishing the IRS, if they can't deliver refund checks once a year? Now you want a new government or maybe Wall Street to deliver "Monthly Checks" to every single person who spends money in this Country? Until the questions are answered about how this program is going to be administrated, and by whom, it won't fly!
As far as me having a solution to how over hundreds of millions of consumers are going to receive their monthly checks on time and to the correct address, I don't have a solution only have questions? Very few, if any persons bring up the payment question,I have.
Why don't you call Boortz up on his show for his answer on that question? Boortz is always bellowing about Big Gov butting into his life, with a Fair Tax Law in place, government will know every single thing you do with "YOUR" money, from sunrise to sunset and in between,buying bubble gum, to multi million dollar Yachts. Is this what you want? Oh,that's right, You're inclined to support it"
As far as me having a personal vendetta against Boortz's, vendetta no, but I will remind the anyone every chance I have,about Boortz's background! It is relevant here, as he Boortz says "Don't believe a word I say unless you know for sure that it is true",or words to that effect!
This Fair Tax, Pie-in-the-Sky pipe dream was around long before Boortz, starting beating his drum about it!
CK ROoF, take some time and bone up on the Fair Tax and Boortz's background,you might actually learn things you didn't know,or didn't want to know!
Try this out, for a intelligent conversation!
A few Journalists that want to debate Boortz on neutral grounds live in Atlanta. Why should Boortz be paid anything to discuss his pet project in Atlanta? One would think he'd discuss it with anyone anywhere, anytime, even in a bathroom!
The problem with Boortz is that he wants to control the questioning, and most important of all,the MIKE!
The answer Boortz gave, quoting you, "He said he'd debate the above mentioned in a public forum, when he has no other obligations and providing they pay his standard speaking fee".
What a G. D. cop-out that statement is, but coming from Boortz, it's the story of his life!
Why would anyone want to ride the coat-tails of a known liar,Chickenhawk,and faux college graduate? Boortz's coat tails would be the last place any respectful,honest person would want to be! If anything, other journalists would bring honesty into the discussion,something Boortz has never had come out of his big mouth!
By the way Troy,how about you answering the question I asked CK ROoF,"Who or what non governmental agency is going to be responsible for issuing hundred of millions of checks, each and every month,on time ,with the right amounts due,to anyyone who buys anything in this Country,from bubble gum to Jet Airliners and beyond?" Can you answer that for me?
Yes troy it is sematics. I am not trying to argue with you at all but those are the terms used by economists. Businesses will never bear the burden of income taxes, they will always pass it on.
Cpl Frank
”Who or what non governmental agency is going to be responsible for issuing hundred of millions of checks, each and every month,on time ,with the right amounts due,to anyyone who buys anything in this Country,from bubble gum to Jet Airliners and beyond?” Can you answer that for me?"
What is left of the IRS or the SS amdinistration should have no trouble doing this. Remember, a citizen head of houshold must apply for it.
Were you trying to be sarcastic ,when you said "What is left of the IRS or SS administration should have "NO TROUBLE" doing this?"
There are many reasons LOTS of people would and DO ride his coat tails. It is obvious from all the knock off talk show host. Not that there is anything wrong with a knock off. Heck, I'm sure Boortz's creativity is not 100% his. Nobody's is. As for a liar. He does lie. He also admits it. His job is to entertain. That's what he's paid to do and he does it well. At the same time, he uses his privilage to speak to millions as an opportunity to push issues that mean a lot to him. Something everyone with that privilage does, whether they are Libertarian or something other.
Faux college graduate? You got me there. I don't have a clue what you mean. As far as I knew, he graduated from a college and went on to practice law. Not that you have to graduate to do that. But, I thought I had heard him say or imply he'd graduated. There again though, he says he lies. :) Nonetheless, why would it matter? Really..why?
Your last sentence is not true. You said "any" and there are "some" that want to and do ride his coat tails. Yes, some if not all are respectful and honest people.
Cpl, if you are so against the FairTax, what do you suggest we change it to? Or do you think what the current system has morphed into and continues to is the best we could hope for? Come on, over 21 million dollars of research has been done on this, some of the best minds in the country support it and some of the best FairTax criticism has been squashed with math and facts? What does your research say? Where are your "never heard" questions or criticisms?
http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/FairTaxPrebateExplai...
Enjoy.
It's very obvious you never read John Sugg's articles about Boortz! He "NEVER GRADUATED FROM COLLEGE" as verified, by The Office of the Registrar at Texas A&M University!
He also lied to the Selective Service while attending Texas A&M about his status as a student,then for years told anyone that would listen that he was 4-F,which he never was! Read John Sugg's articles on Boortz and his cowardly way, he avoided military service by lying, during the bloodiest years of the Vietnam War! By the way, this is also verified by a FOIA request that was sent to the Selective Service.
As for Law School ,yes he did become a attorney,from a Law School that recently has just received "Provincial Accreditation". That is until,'05 the Law School wasn't even recognized by the ABA. By the way Bortz could "ONLY" practice law in Georgia! In other words the "Night School" was a diploma mill!
That's Boortz in a nut shell,wouldn't know the truth if he stepped on it,and it bit him!
While I go re-read the article on rebates,I've only got one thing to say so far,if I can stop laughing long enough!The S S Administration is going to be in charge of sending out rebate checks and Administering this program!! A government agency to start with, that can't even answer it's phones on a daily basis!
Troy,I've got a bridge for sale in New York City for sale,want to buy it,cheap? What part of Boortz's coat tail are you attached too?
Why don't you answer Cpl. Franks question?
Troy did answer the question, in case you missed it.
Cpl,
You're still attacking Boortz as if that's going completely to destroy the fair tax program. I don't honestly care who sends out the rebate checks. The agency who does it is irrelevant. You still haven't delved into the fair tax plan enough to answer it as a plan. All you can do is point to something you believe to be hypothetically impossible and then make fun of Boortz. That's not the way to make a point. It is the way to ruin your own credibility.
Who cares about Boortz? I don't. So what if he didn't graduate from college. I don't have a B.S. degree either. Does that make me incapable of understanding the fair tax plan? I don't support the fair tax plan because of Boortz. I support it because, after reading up on it, it seems to be a much better plan than the current nightmare.
If you have something to say about the fair tax plan itself (besides your hypothetical situations) then say it. Otherwise, go bash Boortz somewhere else. The fact that you have to bash Boortz shows just how little you really do understand about the fair tax plan.
What I do understand is that no one has addressed the question of who is going to administer this Pie-in-the-Sky Pipe Dream!
Do you actually believe that the S S Adminstration can handle processing hundreds of millions of checks each month, on time, with the proper amount that is due to each persons who applies?
Your remark that you "don't care who sends out the checks each month,and that the agency is irrevelant",speaks much about your intelligence!
This Fair Tax Scheme is a Good Idea and I agree ,but that's about as far as it will go,in other words, "Show me the money"!
And about Boortz,keep listening to his pipe dreams,but check out everything he says!
You're right, I don't have to continually bash Boortz,but when a known liar is talking about my money,sending it to Washington,then expecting a check each month,on time,with the proper amount of rebate due,with his background I believe that the Fair Tax Scheme would be better off if a known liar wasn't leading the way!
You said:
"Your remark that you “don’t care who sends out the checks each month,and that the agency is irrevelant”,speaks much about your intelligence!"
This is exactly the kind of nonsense that ruins your credibility. You have to stoop to insulting my intelligence in order to bolster your case. Maybe the SSA can administer the checks and maybe they can't. The point is, you don't know they can't. You just attack attack attack.
When I said that it is irrelevant who sends the checks, here is what I meant: I trust that those who will (hopefully) put this into law will find a way to get it done. If that means using the SSA or some other existing or new agency then fine by me. I really don't care who sends the checks.
The problem with your irresponsible negativity is that it does not offer any solutions. It also causes you to become very negative in how you respond to others which just comes off making you look little and mean. I say this to try to help you. If you want to be part of a constructive conversation then offer solutions, not just problems.
Your second paragraph says it all!I wasn't insulting your intelligence,as it is obvious you have very little, or none at all! Talk about "Blind Faith" in a government that can't even pay the military disabled on time,one that runs on secrecy and black ops! You're the Posterboy for those who are jumping on this bandwagon,one that's that's loaded with dynamite and heading off a cliff!
You're all gung ho about a new tax system, being offered to you by a carnival-barker type huckster,who feeds off the dumb and uninformed,who love being led around, like cattle to slaughter!
The only way the Fair Tax will work,and have the support of the people is if their monthly checks are delivered to them on time,each and every month, with the correct amount due! That's it,plain and simple!
How are you going to like paying somewhere between 27-35 cents,(because it's not known what the percentage rate actually is) on each and every purchase. Then you wait for months for what-ever amount of rebate, the computer prints out? Each month your check will be different,depending on how much you spend or don't spend!Call/write boortz and ask what the tax rate is going to be,he doesn't know,but it will be higher than what he says for sure!
Talking about Big Gov.looking over your shoulder today,wait till they know where you've been, what you're doing,(and with whom)how much you're actually spending and earning etc!
What about the black market that will prosper under this pipe dream,will make the black market of WW2, look like lemonade stand run by a 5 year-old?
CK,start asking real questions about the bad side of this, pie-in-the-sky pipe dream,proposed by a 62 year old carnival-barker type huckster!
Sorry I meant:
What is left of the IRS AND SS administration should have “NO TROUBLE” doing this.
In other words, the SS admin is used to sending out checks. AND with help from un-needed IRS workers, they would be fine.
Ashford Schwall aschwall@comcast.net
What's going to happen to the S.S. Administration?
Are you implying that the S S Administration is also going to be disbanded, along with the IRS, if the Fair Tax is made the Law of the Land?
I can only say one thing: ROFL!!
If everything you stand for is rooted in anger and childish insults then I know I must be on the correct side. Thanks for clearing that up.
LOL!! I'm going to laugh at your post for a looooooooooooooong time.
So when I ask a few questions you won't or can't answer,You roll around on the floor?
What does "Rooted in anger,and childish insults" have to do with asking questions,legitimate ones, about how the monthly checks are going to be processed,mailed out to over many millions of people,monthly,on time,and for the right amount?
When you stop rolling around on the floor laughing,how about answering my questions?
Who is going to process, mail out these monthly checks on time, with correct amounts,to every single person who files a statement each month?
Second Question;How does this Flash-in-the-Plan Fair Tax boondoggle,help take "Big Gov",out of our lives,and who's in charge of it?
Third; What is the percentage rate that everyone will be paying?
Fourth;When was the last time the IRS had too many workers?
That's all for the time being,wouldn't want to take you away from rolling around on the floor ,laughing!
Simple questions,simple answers!
"Ashford Schwall,
What’s going to happen to the S.S. Administration?
Are you implying that the S S Administration is also going to be disbanded, along with the IRS, if the Fair Tax is made the Law of the Land?"
No not at all. I am implying that the SS admin knows how to send out monthly checks. The FairTax would boost the overall intake of SS.
You still haven't answered my question,which Government Agency will be used to collect,and distribute everyone's monthly check?
If you think that Big Brother knows too much about you today,wait until they can track your spending habits,where you are at any given time,of the day,or night!
What happens for the first 4 or 5 years,while Big Brother is working out the kinks in this massive money shuffle,invasion of privacy by Government decree,that you don't get squat back,but you're paying 27-35% extra on every single purchase you make?
Aren't you aware of now what happens to your tax dollars that is sent to Washington,it's spent before it gets there? Just wait till the Congess get's hold of increased revenue, by this Pie-in-the-Sky Pipe Dream!
factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html